The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
I stand by what I said.
indo-dreaming wrote:Its funny when trolls get accused of trolling, and then reply with a another troll.
As for Andy M, thanks for proving my point.
Troll noun anyone who calls out @info’s daily dose of bullshit
indo-dreaming wrote:Its funny when trolls get accused of trolling, and then reply with a another troll.
As for Andy M, thanks for proving my point.
I’m not trolling, I’m pointing out some of your finer work as you seem to be keen to deny it.
burleigh wrote:AndyM always trying to find easy targets but still ends up missing every shot.
100% the dude is just so detached from reality.
AndyM wrote:Come on Indo, we all know what you’re about.
You’ve been making it clear for years.
Right wing, authoritarian, immoral ugliness.
Im 100% happy to be called right wing(just don't call me left wing as its basically another way of saying your brain hasn't developed past 21) but i much prefer to call my self conservative but the reality is my views are a real mix for instance i pretty much agree with most social/political views with people like Joe Rogan or Elon Musk who claim to be left wing, which is weird because because while i agree on most issues with them the issues i dont my views align more with what might be considered a left wing view, for instance i support strict gun control or was 100% happy to be vaccinated.
Many views i hold also aren't really considered right wing, pro multiculturalism, not religious, accept man made climate change, pro renewables, pro EV's, pro drug reform, not against legal abortion, support a public health care system etc
In the USA my views on these issues would probably see me labelled by some as left leaning, which i find insulting.
Authoritarian call is just down right bizarre, i can only guess its come from my admiration of Singapore?
But FFS we have never seen a level of authoritarian in Australian like we did in Victoria during Covid and while in hindsight I probably went along with things too willingly to begin with, i did change my views as things went on and push back more and more against the lock downs, mask regulations i even criticised vax mandates.
Ironically it was mostly the left who supported these things all the way and some even now with the beauty of hindsight dont think we went too far and even voted for the Victorian government that put them through it all...crazy.
As for immoral or uglyliness another WTF moment???
The left are completely immoral, the right are the ones that try to prevent the break down of our society and values, and support things like family values the left and marxist ideology is in total opposition to these things their aim is to destroy any morals and traditional values.
This thread has Trump parallels, in that many of you seem to be suffering from Indo Dreaming derangement syndrome. Whatever ID says, and however patiently he says it, he's the devil.
As a non Aussie I've stayed out of this one, but having gone through similar issues in NZ I've occasionally had a look at how the chasm between you has deepened, and how points have been argued. Many of you are not playing the ball, but the man.
Let's just say that it hasn't looked pretty from the outside, and imho this thread should get burned with fire never to be seen again.
totally island bay
indo is just constantly abused and belittled for wrongthink...
practically no one challenges his arguments - hence him (rightly) calling the frown and friends trolls...
doesn't mean I agree with him, but geez... if you're not in the cult of indod is indodevil... it doesn't look pretty at all..
and tbh, just confirms everyday why the voice didn't get up...
ie. a lack of any argument whatsoever....
ie. agree with me or you are a cunt...
it's a cult alright
cunt of a cult...
meanwhile...
winning!
(not at all...)
bluediamond wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:I think the conversation has gone pretty well really, pretty civil and on topic, everyone has had a fair go and fair say, no need to agree on everything, i don't feel like I've copped shit at all.
Cringe, argh i cringe at other peoples comments sometimes, each to their own.
Agreed. Enjoying reading everyones different perspectives. Been busy but had a quick read through and really appreciate all the thoughts and philosophies each contributor has put forth. It's a good conversation to have.
Those were the days eh Indo!
Car'n now Islandbay. You can't be a kiwi and calling for a thread on an Aussie surfing website about Australian issues to be pulled down.
Why the need to censor. Just don't read it. Simple eh?
I wasn’t calling for anything to be censored, absolutely not.
But it’s been 7000+ posts, and nothing has really come of it, and people who’d probably get on really well in person are calling each other really nasty things.
That’s all I meant.
You guys are on glue if you think that Indo is merely putting up unpopular yet innocent ideas for discussion.
I concur. What you wrote above too IB.
Island Bay wrote:I wasn’t calling for anything to be censored, absolutely not.
But it’s been 7000+ posts, and nothing has really come of it, and people who’d probably get on really well in person are calling each other really nasty things.
That’s all I meant.
Yeah well, it's been 200 plus years of having their land stolen and nothings really come of it either, so, personally, i think this conversation is only just starting.
And i concur at Andy M!
You think Indos ideas are unpopular Southern?
sypkan wrote:totally island bay
indo is just constantly abused and belittled for wrongthink...
practically no one challenges his arguments - hence him (rightly) calling the frown and friends trolls...
doesn't mean I agree with him, but geez... if you're not in the cult of indod is indodevil... it doesn't look pretty at all..
and tbh, just confirms everyday why the voice didn't get up...
ie. a lack of any argument whatsoever....
ie. agree with me or you are a cunt...
it's a cult alright
cunt of a cult...
meanwhile...
winning!
(not at all...)
Hey, @info is entitled to his opinions but after a decade of reading his tripe and observing his personal MO of never conceding a bees dick on anything despite the most patient of efforts of others there can never be a discussion. Now this approach serves him well as does the occasional blast from his opponents so all is fair
Can you give us an example of anything you've engaged Indo on Guy? Furthermore, can you give us an example of anything you've conceded?
Happy to be corrected.
zenagain wrote:You think Indos ideas are unpopular Southern?
They'd be unpopular in this neck of the woods @zen.
But then we had a majority yes vote.
It's a different breed down these parts mate.
And for what it's worth.
I don't mind Indo. Does my head in at times but pretty harmless.
This is his happy place and that's fine by me.
Of course SR and right at home in others.
I like Indo, always have. Doesn't mean I agree with him either but I reckon he for the most part he will debate in good faith and not get personal unless he's really copping it.
*disclaimer. I got smacked in the face by my board this morning, broke my nose, was knocked out for a few seconds underwater....
So take whatever i say as possible concussion!!!!
Just kidding Indo. You're ok. We've had our fire ups but no worries.
Have learnt to accept.
Plus lifes too short for blowing up at crew...especially online.
Agreed @zen. Cheers.
zenagain wrote:Can you give us an example of anything you've engaged Indo on Guy? Furthermore, can you give us an example of anything you've conceded?
Happy to be corrected.
Cute @zen very cute
You of all people would /should know exactly what I’m talking about but as I’m not fixated on being right all the time I don’t keep a record of what is discussed here.
zenagain wrote:Can you give us an example of anything you've engaged Indo on Guy? Furthermore, can you give us an example of anything you've conceded?
Happy to be corrected.
exactly...
not an inch!
never!!
at least indod can acknowledge the other person's position...
(before tediously returning to shoving his version of dogma down their throats... haha...)
southernraw wrote:*disclaimer. I got smacked in the face by my board this morning, broke my nose, was knocked out for a few seconds underwater....
So take whatever i say as possible concussion!!!!
Just kidding Indo. You're ok. We've had our fire ups but no worries.
Have learnt to accept.
Plus lifes too short for blowing up at crew...especially online.
Heal well, SR.
I've been through all of those things too, and while my nose isn't any prettier that's just life.
Sorry Guy, doesn't make it not true though.
Heal well SR. My nose is cute as a button. One of my many endearing features.
Tedious he is, as are others. Best meme, by one of the multiple X banned peeps, about the guy sucking the oxygen out of every thread. I like Indo also but oh my guy in the sky, give it a rest sometimes! That’s what pisses people off. The relentlessness of it.
southernraw wrote:*disclaimer. I got smacked in the face by my board this morning, broke my nose, was knocked out for a few seconds underwater....
So take whatever i say as possible concussion!!!!
Just kidding Indo. You're ok. We've had our fire ups but no worries.
Have learnt to accept.
Plus lifes too short for blowing up at crew...especially online.
Lol. Well, you do the blowing up often enough. Look in the mirror and there is the blowup problem child.
Fix what you don’t like, SR. It’s actually really easy.
southernraw wrote:*disclaimer. I got smacked in the face by my board this morning, broke my nose, was knocked out for a few seconds underwater....
So take whatever i say as possible concussion!!!!
Just kidding Indo. You're ok. We've had our fire ups but no worries.
Have learnt to accept.
Plus lifes too short for blowing up at crew...especially online.
Quick recovery mate!
At least you got a surf, flat onshore mush here.
Btw, pity about the nose. I did the same with my nose and knocked out in 1ft burleigh. Heal fast and I hope the concussion is not a long term issue.
@ Roadkill. He’s seen the light. Amen brothers and sisters
Roadkill wrote:Btw, pity about the nose. I did the same with my nose and knocked out in 1ft burleigh. Heal fast and I hope the concussion is not a long term issue.
Yeah fair enough mate. Point taken from above posts and all good. Can wear the criticism. :)
Cheers all. Some will call the nose an improvement.
Its amazing how calm you are waking up to getting pummelled under water. Felt like i could stay down there forever.
Yeah @andymac had a little long period pulse this morning that was an unexpected surprise. Got some sick ones too
Aloha all. At the end of the day we're just a bunch of waxheads with varying opinions. Nothing wrong with that.
Its amazing how calm you are waking up to getting pummelled under water. Felt like i could stay down there forever.
Shit that sounds like what happens when you’re on the other side of coming back up.
#metoo
zenagain wrote:Sorry Guy, doesn't make it not true though.
Heal well SR. My nose is cute as a button. One of my many endearing features.
Ok @zen and @syphan, an example as you asked not that it is important to me….. on the ME topic on at least two occasions I tried to explain to @info aka Henry Kissinger (he aren’t) that I knew enough about the situation to know I knew jackshit only to be accused of being antisemitic so I again attempted to explain that I had both very good Jewish and Arab friends adding what I thought to be an honest summation of their experience and current position. Now did the weasel concede his error no he didn’t but that was entirely expected.
You know I have since spoken to my friends and could add some nuanced points from real people with family members in the ME but why would I bother? Seriously
And here we are having to justify our disagreements with the least informed, most dogmatic, most morally reprehensible person on the site.
Strange times.
Island Bay wrote:This thread has Trump parallels, in that many of you seem to be suffering from Indo Dreaming derangement syndrome. Whatever ID says, and however patiently he says it, he's the devil.
As a non Aussie I've stayed out of this one, but having gone through similar issues in NZ I've occasionally had a look at how the chasm between you has deepened, and how points have been argued. Many of you are not playing the ball, but the man.
Let's just say that it hasn't looked pretty from the outside, and imho this thread should get burned with fire never to be seen again.
Thank's Island Bay (& Zen)
Yeah it is annoying when people just want to attack you and not debate the things you say, its even worst when people want to twist or misuse your words or paint you with views you dont even agree with or even oppose like this clown above does time after time.
Its clearly about just demonising others because they dont have counter arguments hence why when challenged questions can never been answered and not even an attempt to do so.
well if thats your big example
we were talking about you conceding an inch...
sypkan wrote:well if thats your big example
we were talking about you conceding an inch...
Inch by inch....that's how the wars are won @syp
Wow. 1941. My grandparents were just about to emigrate from Europe to here to start my new life.....meanwhile...what trauma????
"Restricted right of Aboriginal people to move from north to south of the State across the 20th parallel of south latitude. Repealed by Native Welfare Act 1963."
Click on any state. This is from W.A's.
https://aiatsis.gov.au/collection/featured-collections/remove-and-protect
And then of course,...lets not mention 1944.
"To be granted 'citizenship' under this Act, an Aboriginal person had to convince a magistrate that he/she had severed all ties to extended family and friends (parents, siblings and own children excepted), was free from disease, would benefit from holding citizenship and was 'of industrious habits'. Repealed by Native (Citizenship Rights) Act Repeal Act 1971."
I mean there was a war going on......that indigenous crew were fighting in mind you. But don't mention the war when there's one closer to home.
I'm not sure how Australians right now can focus on the politics of this issue and ignore these straight out political facts from the not too distant past. This is where the current trauma lies. Anyone willing to dispute this??? Better be a good argument ;-)
"Its clearly about just demonising others because they dont have counter arguments hence why when challenged questions can never been answered and not even an attempt to do so."
Hey Indo when you said that 80% of Indigenous people who live in regional towns have lives just as good as everyone else, you never did tell me where you go that stat from :)
Sypkan is on to it. Short and sweet,
Nice
It’s all about Indo, he’s difficult... and his comments argumentative which incites the readers to make their passionate responses.
A provocateur of the finest sense! Ha ha!
Indo takes the long drawn out way and drags everybody along with it. Warning, warning! Reader alert! Its “ID response time”
He’s a shit stirrer with enough paddle power to cross the whole of the Tasman sea, truly!
And he gets his target nearly every time, even like this comment from me, he loves it! Just loves to see that he is the focus because without it what else would he do? He’d be lost!
The consensus is that he is pretty harmless and soft, but I know that his views are self-centred and he doesn’t give a shit about destroying the land or indigenous rights or native habitat at the hands of mining for coal or gas. I hope I’m wrong Indo about this and I know many think this way unfortunately! We had this discussion years ago on these pages and I know your position was like that, same as the reckless mining corporations and supporting govts’. Lets just ride over Cultural significant landscapes and make them dead landscapes, nice!
This mindset is unforgivable! And is dangerous to define that agenda. For this I stand tall and will my opposition. Cheers
southernraw wrote:And then of course,...lets not mention 1944.
"To be granted 'citizenship' under this Act, an Aboriginal person had to convince a magistrate that he/she had severed all ties to extended family and friends (parents, siblings and own children excepted), was free from disease, would benefit from holding citizenship and was 'of industrious habits'. Repealed by Native (Citizenship Rights) Act Repeal Act 1971."
I mean there was a war going on......that indigenous crew were fighting in mind you. But don't mention the war when there's one closer to home.
I'm not sure how Australians right now can focus on the politics of this issue and ignore these straight out political facts from the not too distant past. This is where the current trauma lies. Anyone willing to dispute this??? Better be a good argument ;-)
Come on Andy M and Seeds. Lets focus on some proper discussion and steer away from the personal back and forth. You blokes have brought alot of good to this discussion. Keep it flowing lads.
Would love to hear a proper response to the above post from the crew who think all's peaches with the indigenous lot.
This is a golden opportunity for some of the more vocal to dispel a 'myth'. Written in political history dammit.
Enlighten away :-)
IB and Zen.
Yeah, nah regarding Indo.
I don’t get any pleasure out of joining the Indo pile on but fuck me…
The way he try’s to portray himself as all innocent and non-provocative after someone finally snaps and loses their shit at him does my head in.
Never mind the fact he’s free-loading off the site as he refuses to contribute to a subscription and the mindless repetitive comments day in day out all combine to make it an unpleasant experience when he’s dominating every thread.
Yeah I know, just don’t read it… but crikey
Bless you SR.
Right back at ya Mr A.M.
Hey goofy....jump on the not my circus, not my monkeys boat. Pretty sweet mate. Hope you've been getting some spring waves mate.
Reform wrote:It’s all about Indo, he’s difficult... and his comments argumentative which incites the readers to make their passionate responses.
A provocateur of the finest sense! Ha ha!
Indo takes the long drawn out way and drags everybody along with it. Warning, warning! Reader alert! Its “ID response time”
He’s a shit stirrer with enough paddle power to cross the whole of the Tasman sea, truly!
And he gets his target nearly every time, even like this comment from me, he loves it! Just loves to see that he is the focus because without it what else would he do? He’d be lost!
The consensus is that he is pretty harmless and soft, but I know that his views are self-centred and he doesn’t give a shit about destroying the land or indigenous rights or native habitat at the hands of mining for coal or gas. I hope I’m wrong Indo about this and I know many think this way unfortunately! We had this discussion years ago on these pages and I know your position was like that, same as the reckless mining corporations and supporting govts’. Lets just ride over Cultural significant landscapes and make them dead landscapes, nice!
This mindset is unforgivable! And is dangerous to define that agenda. For this I stand tall and will my opposition. Cheers
You're spot on on multiple counts.
The fella throws the biggest rancid dead cats on the table, time after time, then goes and pulls his pud with glee in the corner.
If he's purely a troll, a fabrication, then maybe you can say well played.
If he's even a little bit for real, then his mindset is, as you say, unforgivable.
Geez fellas. Let it go.
It's not about Indo Dreaming.
Don't succumb to the dark side.
I did it too often.
Light shines the way.
Think about it legends.....
edit Not calling you the darkside Indo Just our own personal defaults. Like i said, you're fine by me.
Bless every one of you and your cotton socks.
That's why I like SN.
Do you think these forums would be better without Indo?
Wait, don't answer that. Purely rhetorical.
Btw- I like these threads because quite often I've held opinions without basing them on fact and smarter people than me have changed the way I see the world.
Beautiful as always @zen.
Thankyou.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28